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Upgrading Home Theatre - Again
Malakai - Aug 7, 2005
  Malakai Aug 7, 2005
I'm thinking about upgrading my home theater system yet again, with the fall of prices of hdtv and home theater equipment. I was really hoping to upgrade my laserdisc player again, one that may have slightly better video quality and the pioneer dvl-919 caught my eye, because it has component outputs, but I read somewhere that the component output was for use on its dvd player. If anyone familiar with this particular player is here, can you tell me if this means you can't get a component signal from the laserdisc, only the dvd portion of this player?

I don't have a problem with my current laserdisc player, but when I upgrade to HDTV, I'm just wondering how good of quality the picture will be, because I have viewed a few HDTVs that have analog signals (coax, composite) and sometimes they seem a bit washed out, streched, grainy, or a little of all of the above. It doesn't look terrible, or even bad, but it should be atleast a little better than it is. I know that it's not going to fix all of those problems, but if you've messed with a lot of laserdisc players (as I have,) a lot of times, text and other items and such on the screen can get blurry. I guess you call that dot crawl or something.

Since laserdiscs are made using composite video, does that mean that I'm SOL and just have to hope for a a great digital comb filter in the tv set, or is there another way to make the picture quality better?

I'm dreading upgrading my home theater receiver again, because I just recently upgraded that (6-8 months ago.) So, i'm going to wait on that and eventually try to get one with THX Ultra2 Select.

 Malakai Aug 9, 2005
Does anyone know if you could use a dvi to vga converter/adapter on an HDTV tuner, to make it compatible with a pc monitor? I know a few hdtv tuners have vga output, but what about the ones that don't have that?

 lordofduct Aug 9, 2005
You need a DVI-I (also known as DVI-A or DVI-analog) connection on the HDTV tuner. Check the DVI port and reference to this pic:



If it has the Analog pins (notice the 4 pins around the larger flat pin) Then it puts out RGB and you can use the DVI to VGA connector. If it doesn't have those pins you need a converter box which can run you a pretty penny and lowers the quality.

[EDIT]remember though, if it has the pin holes it could just be because they are cheap and use the wrong plugs and it wont work. But I highly doubt it, as this is an expensive bit of equipment and they "shouldn't" fuck with standards.

I would also like to say about the HDTVs themselves. I have a 57" JVC CRT projection HDTV that goes upto 1080i/720p. I don't have a LaserDisc player, but I do have a VCD player and several old school consoles. Most of them are hooked up through composite (the saturn and newer consoles by S-Video, the XBOX had component), anyways, the picture on all of them were very nice. Now this may be because I got a CRT projection and CRT is natively RGB/YUV. (I personally don't like the pic quality of LCD or Plasma... the improvements I consider to be to much price to pay when you consider the downsides. Motion blur on plasma, shorter life span, and black just doesn't look black to me on them)

 Malakai Aug 9, 2005
Yeah, I was reading somewhere that only the older models support rgb/vga, but I didn't know if it meant from a vga port or the dvi port. The main reason I wanted to know if it would hook to a pc monitor is to check to see what kind of DTV signals I could pick up with an HDTV tuner, before spending $1400+ on an hdtv.

that info helped a lot.. thanks

 Malakai Aug 10, 2005
I just got a 160" vhf/uhf/fm antenna, a 50 ft telescoping pole, an inside/outside amplifier, some new rg6 cable, a rotor that I already had, and this will hopefully pull in a decent ammount of vhf, uhf, and uhf dtv/hdtv channels.

The antenna, rotor, and pole was free, and the poll is set at 43 feet, with an extra four or so at the antenna/rotor poll. So, it will be appx 44ft high. Before this, I called a couple satellite/antenna/tv shops, and one of them told me that the only way you could get an antenna 50 ft high was to put it on a tower ($800-$2000,) and another store actually sold 50ft high antenna polls. I knew this wasn't true before this, because one of my neighbors has one that's probably around 100ft high, on poles, with a shitload of guy wires running down it.

My last setup (well, before today, which it was torn down) was an old vhf/uhf antenna, probably around 80", that had three missing elements, and only brought in two clear channels, 1 fair to bad quality channel, and some other channels as the weather permitted. The height was probably around 28-30ft, with no amplifier, and most likely bad cabling (quality degraded majorly over time).

Anyway, I live in a swamp, where there are trees everywhere and sometimes lots of water, but I know that some people do get most of the major channels here - some may have better clearing though. In my best location (where the new one will be installed,) i'll only have about 50% clearance from trees. From what I've been reading, after appx 30 ft high, every ten feet higher, the quality doubles. 1.5x better quality from the original height, better quality from a bigger antennas that's actually in good shape, better quality from new cabling, and actually having an amplifier will hopefully make a big difference.

From my location, using antennaweb, it's only possible for me to get a max ammount of 4 hdtv stations and around 20 analog stations. That's one of the two reasons I did not choose an all digital uhf antenna. The other reason is because I'm only going to have 1 hdtv in the house soon, and other rooms will still use analog. So, the analog vhf and uhf analog stations will be of use.

Based on previous antenna experience (And location), I know i'll get good reception on two hdtv channels, and lucky if i get it on the third, and almost surely won't get it on the 4th. And for the analog stations, I think it'll be between 9 and 12 stations out of the 20. Some of the other stations will drift in and out with the weather. That's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than 2 or 3. My options were 160" antenna = free, or 173" antenna $170 retail. So, I chose the 160". It will be put up saturday. I can't wait!

For everyone wondering why the heck I am still using an antenna instead of directv or dish network, that is because I was given a choice.. "You can have broadband internet, or you can have satellite tv." It's very tempting, but I can only afford one and not the other and don't want to be obligated in a two year contract right now.

So, what do I want HDTV for anyway then? D-VHS is starting to come down, even though it doesn't seem to be taking off very well, more local stations switching to hdtv, the future of video games being all hdtv, the new hddvd or blu-ray dvd players, when they come out, anamorphic widescreen DVDs, and eventually, I probably will get some type of DSS service again.

 Malakai Aug 11, 2005
I just ordered an RCA HDTV Tuner, which had DVI w/rgb support, as well as upconverting and downconverting SDTV/DTV/HDTV signals. It also has coaxial and optical digital sound output. Anyway, I can't find many reviews about this particular model (atsc11), but it lists for $449 and is hopefully a good one.

 lordofduct Aug 11, 2005
I just did some searches on that model Tuner and have been seeing it in the 380 price range. Also no reviews, but have seen star ratings ranging from 1 star to 4 stars. Hrmmm....

 Malakai Aug 11, 2005
I've checked out reviews for probbly 10 different models, and all of them seem to have some flaws, ranging from no QAM, slow changing channels, hard to get to signal strength meters, receiving all but 1 digital station, even though another tuner receives the other one, audio drop outs in digital coaxial/optical connections (sometimes fixed by firmware,) and a few even DOA. So, I'm not going to worry too much about that right now, as long as it works lol.

One of the things I noticed on this system is that it has a physical/manual resolution switch on the back of the unit. Some have the switching in an onscreen menu. This could really mess someone up if they had they checked the wrong resolution, and their screen went black. They'd then have to figure out how to switch it back blindly, figure out how to reset the system, or go look through a bunch of web pages or call customer service, to find some special 100 digit code to do it (press 3 4 2 6 9 8 2 7 7 8 7 8 7 7 7 7 8 7 7 7 on the remote when the unit is powered on) or something lol..

I was originally about to order a samsung unit, until reading a lot of bad reviews about those. They apparently suffer from DOA majorly, dead after 30 days, slow channel changing, and I believe i read somewhere that they have to reprogram every single time they switch from OTA and QAM (Antenna and Cable) tuner.

Another option was USDigitaltv or something, made by hisense, and mainly sold at walmart. They seem to have an overall good rating, but from what I've read, they only put out a digital stereo signal from the coaxial digital connection, and a lot of dolby digital receivers won't even recognize the signal. If it would work on my dolby digital receiver, I'm sure it could still get a pro logic sound, but I'd rather have something I know is compatible and make full use of my equipment.

I'm not particularly a big fan of RCA, but in my experiences with other RCA equipment, they've always seemed to work like they should, even if they don't have all the bells and whistles.

 Malakai Aug 17, 2005
Well, I didn't quite get the antenna up 50ft, because the pole was bad. So, I had to settle for a lot less, but as I predicted, I'm getting around 10 analog channels that are very watchable. I predicted between 9 and 12 stations, and one of those stations is appx 87 miles away. There are also a few other channels that are somewhat watchable, depening on the time of day, and a few more that kinda drift in and out. Overall, I'm getting about 15 faint signals that are unwatchable. So, maybe if I do a huge upgrade again later on, it'll bring some of those channels in, but since there is no guarantee, I'm not going to worry about it right now.

As for the HD OTA channels, my tuner will hopefully be here around saturday and I'll see how many of the 4 HD channels that will come in through this antenna.

Recently, I had a friend purchase one of those modified free to air receivers from a satellite dealer nearby, and I was tempted to buy one for $350, because who wouldn't want free dish network, right? So, I started to look up information about them on the net.

Anyway, there are two things wrong with this picture. First, the receiver was a $100-$125 receiver, and the programming information about them is all over the net. The second thing wrong with this picture is that Dish Network is moving to nagravision 2 encryption, and some people say that will render their FTA receivers useless.

After reading up on several sites, I stumbled across information about the old c-band dishes. Apparently, both analog and digital C and KU band from a big dish is still thriving, even though not as popular as the 18" dishes. This kinda pisses me off, because years ago when the first small dishes were getting to be popular, they claimed that all of the c-band programming was basically leaving the air.

We were told that the option for an upgrade to my dish would cost about $4000, and that was $500 more than our whole setup before. I thought after that deal breaker, that every one just abandoned the big dishes completely, and now I find that not only do you get the same channels (and more,) for analog and 4dtv stations, but also for about 1/3rd of the price.

What's more disturbing is that probably about 1/3rd of the dish network and directv stations are from FTA satellites, that were free to begin with.

There are some good things and some bad things about both big dishes and small ones though. For one, the big dishes aren't going to be a viable option forever, even if they always have programming on them.

Secondly, the big dishes weren't made to have over 2 receivers per dish. For the most part, you either choose 1 receiver with C and KU band, or two C or two KU band receivers. I haven't been able to find any information about multiswitches like the new ones have.

Third, it can take awhile for the motor to move from satellite to satellite, while dish network and directv satellites are stationary. Fourth, a lot of the big dish channels are analog, and all DSS/DVB channels are digital.

Fifth, dss/dvb equipment and maintnance are cheap, while big dish equipment can cost a lot of money. I've checked a few dish places, and if you were to buy a new 4dtv system, it could cost you around $2700.

Sixth, if you already have an old C-Band dish installed, you may only need to upgrade to a 4dtv receiver ($200-$400 for a used one, $1100+ for a new one). In some cases, you may also have to get a newer LNB or add ku band to it.

Seventh, 4dtv receivers can also get an HD upgrade.

Eighth and final, programming on a 4dtv is cheaper, plus you get a la carte. For around $12 a month, you get probably about the same as the dish network package that's $31.99 a month, and then there is a list of a la carte programming you can get for around $1-$1.50 a month per channel.

I'm weighing in the options right now, and while I really don't like the idea of having a lot of money tied up into a system that will only serve 1 room, it may be more viable than dish/directv.

 Malakai Aug 19, 2005
My receiver has arrived. With my current setup, I'm getting 4 HD channels and 2 digital channels. One of those digital channels is the same as one of the HD channels, while another one is only digital. So, I'm getting basically 5 different channels, and even though I thought there were only 4 channels in this area, I did a channel search from a different site, and there are seven possible channels reachable in the general area.

The only thing I don't like about this receiver, and didn't even know until hooking it up, is that it isn't getting analog stations. I thought it would do both digital and analog. So, while that is disappointing, it is something I can overcome. A brand new $400 receiver for $130 isn't too bad at all I suppose.

Also, it seems to be able to get a picture even at a low signal quality of about 5 to 8 percent, which is pretty neat, but any signal that low fluctuates and isn't stable enough.

*UPDATE* I was having problems with one of the channels cutting off and on, one of the strongest ones in my area. I originally thought it was something wrong with the cable that came off of the splitter to the tv, or possibly the cable lengths themselves.

After trying a shorter cable, and even trying a distribution amp, as well as checking all of the connections, I decided to install a temp ground block, and that not only fixed the problem, but brought in two more stations... So, I'm pretty happy with this system now. With a few more tweaks here and there, and hopefully not much more money, i'll probably have something even a bit better.

I'm not even a big football fan, but one of the football games was live on one of the stations, recorded in HD, and even though the signal is being down converted to 480i, the brightness and clarity were nothing less than amazing....

 Mask of Destiny Aug 20, 2005

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by Malakai@Thu, 2005-08-18 @ 02:18 PM



Fourth, a lot of the big dish channels are analog, and all DSS/DVB channels are digital.


Guess what? Just because you're getting a digital signal from your DSS/DVB provider doesn't mean it started that way. The cable companies and DSS/DVB providers all get their signals off the same C and Ku band sattelites that you use with a big dish. If anything, the quality will be lower because you still have all the analog noise you would have with the big dish, but you also get noise from the compression used.

I think the lack of multi-receiver options probably has something to do with the physical limitations of a big dish (i.e. two people can't watch two different channels unless they happen to be on the same sattelite or maybe even the same transponder, I'm not up enough on the tech to be sure). I don't see any technical reason beyond that why you couldn't have any number of receivers.

 Malakai Aug 20, 2005
I kinda thought they could be using some analog channels, but they would have an advantage over most people. For one, a lot of people aren't going to have a perfect terrain location, while cable companies and i'm sure directv and dish network use very open and clear terrain. Some of my low satellites were pretty much hitting trees and probably other structures, and there was a bit of static on those satellites.

Secondly, if you read about the satellite arc, you'll see that even though a motorized satellite will come in contact with each satellite on the clark belt once set up properly, but it won't hit them each perfectly, while these other companies use stationary dishes so that they can perfectly align each dish to one satellite. I know this is true, because when I had my big c-band dish installed professionally, the installer would have to go back and forth, after perfecting a signal on one satellite, to adjust the other satellites so that instead of getting a perfect signal on a few of the satellites, it got an all out good to average signal from all of them.

Third, some of these companies are also using 14ft dishes, to get some of the weaker signals. How many people do you know that has (or has had) a 14ft dish installed in their yard? I asked for a 12ft one from my satellite dealer, and he didn't want to put anything over a 10ft up. There is also what some people call weak satellites. After they've been in service so long, they apparently get weak and eventually die. These require bigger dishes, better terrain, even a better lnb, or some or all of the above.

With that being said, they can probably get a lot of analog stations and be almost undistinguishable from digital, by just converting analog to digital, and converting the analog stereo to ac-3.

As far as dual receivers go, I have never had a setup like that, and I think the thing that makes it hard is the manual polarity of big dish LNBs. There are some LNBs with set polarities it seems, one on V, one on H, and receivers that you can choose to either have C, dual Polarity Cv/Ch, or C and KU bands. The largest feedhorn that I've seen only supports 2 LNBs, and I have never heard of any multi switches for them. I'd like to know more about setting up multiple receivers on the big dish, if anyone here knows..


  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by Mask of Destiny@Sun, 2005-08-21 @ 07:59 AM



Guess what? Just because you're getting a digital signal from your DSS/DVB provider doesn't mean it started that way. The cable companies and DSS/DVB providers all get their signals off the same C and Ku band sattelites that you use with a big dish. If anything, the quality will be lower because you still have all the analog noise you would have with the big dish, but you also get noise from the compression used.



I think the lack of multi-receiver options probably has something to do with the physical limitations of a big dish (i.e. two people can't watch two different channels unless they happen to be on the same sattelite or maybe even the same transponder, I'm not up enough on the tech to be sure). I don't see any technical reason beyond that why you couldn't have any number of receivers.




[post=138496]Quoted post[/post]


 Mask of Destiny Aug 21, 2005
While I'm sure your correct on those assertions, the quality difference (when present) has little to do with whether or not the signal is digital or analog, but your ability to get a good signal from the sattelite. That was the point I was trying to get across.

Personally, I'm not too picky about the quality of my TV reception. If I had the room for a big dish, I'd get one just so I can get a la carte programming as there are very few channels I actually watch.

 lordofduct Aug 21, 2005
I really agree with Mask of Destiny on that one. But then I only watch TV that really doesn't need that great quality of stuff. I watch what: History channel and Discovery and likes (I don't care here, its just there as background sound when Im cleaning or playing in my living room) News and Weather. I don't need pristine signal for that.

Shit I wouldn't even have my Dish Network set up if it weren't for the fact it was free. (my parents who never did shit for me gave me a dish and one receiver that I could hook to there account as a "kicked out" present when I was 17.)

I got my HDTV for superior DVD playback, video games, and hooking my Computer upto it for some fun times. Sometimes though with how little I actually use the thing I wonder why I even have it. (then I think about how my dad in his weird change of ways in the last few months paid for it, I would rather him give me money for school though, but no my step mother is against that kinda stuff... she is soooo weird).

 Malakai Sep 5, 2005
Well, just a little update. I've gotten a FTA (Free to Air) system a few weeks ago, along with some multi-satellite switches, and have it connected to two stationary satellites (Well, 1 dish with 2 lnbs pointing to 2 different satellites) and 1 motorized satellite, with the ability to have somewhere between 8 and 16 lnbs connected to 1 receiver, with the right switch combination.

This system is only setup for KU-Band Digital, but I believe you can also use it with C-Band digital as well, with the right lnb. The stationary dish is appx 20", and the only reason I needed it was because it uses legay dual lnbs, while the motorized dish uses a wide band universal lnb.

I had several problems trying to set up the motorized dish, for several reasons. First, I tried to set it up on a pole I already had, which used to be used for directv, and while it got a good signal on directv, there were too many trees, as well as a house, in the way, to catch a lot of the other signals.

So, I ran it out to the clearest part of the property, which is appx 220ft from where the receiver would be. After reading in several sources that 150ft is the maximum you'd wanna run any motorized fta dish, without using rg-11 cabling, I tried to get some rg-11. None of the satellite places locally had it. I had also read that a lot of people had ran 200ft on a good quality rg-6 cable, with no problems.

So, I bought some philips rg-6 cable.. Worst mistake I could have made. A lot of DB and voltage loss, unstable, etc. So, I took that back and got RCA rg-6. It is so much tougher, stiffer, more mass, and that did a lot better, but I still got some voltage loss.

So, I got all new barrel connectors, cleaned all the connections that had been screwed and unscrewed multiple times, and got rg-6 for even the smallest of connections (from motor to lnb, from switch to receiver,) and that for the most part did the trick.

The next problem was the switch itself, which was brand new, a coolsat diseqc switch. After re-arranging the switch order, I came to the conclusion that lnb input #1 wasn't working correctly, and after hooking up to input 2, 3, and 4, it worked.

To make matters worse, I was at a zero point (true south) of a satellite that I couldn't get anything from (nimiq 2, 82w) because it's a pay service. So, all I could do was try to get a signal there, and after reading lots of information about usals motors, I told the receiver to turn the motor to intelsat americas 5, and adjusted the dish between that satellite and galaxy 10r, and after those two satellites were aligned right, the whole system was setup.

So, if any one is considering getting an FTA motorized dish, remember when setting it up, you don't automatically have the dish aligned when you aim it toward your closest zero point. In fact, if there isn't a satellite near the zero point, just skip it completely.. after putting in your lat/long, tell the receiver to aim towards t5 or g10r, and adjust it from there, to save a lot of time and headaches. You need a minimum (supposedly) dish size of about 30"-33" to get T5. T5 = Telstar 5 = Intelsat Americas 5, just so you don't get confused. Also, make sure both the receiver and the motor support USALS, as it takes your latitude and longitude and makes that its zero point (where your true south should be,) and uses that to determine where to position itself for each satellite.

In the USA, you'll probably only be able to get somewhere between 61.5w, and 142-146w or so on american satellites (american satellites start at 61.5w and end at 148w), because that's about where the motor is going to stop. Ya may also be able to get some atlantic satellites too.. not sure yet.

In conclusion, i'm sure that some people may want to know what types of channels they can get on an FTA system. On G10R, there are quite a few pax, wb, and UPN, fox, and Retro networks, that have a lot of stuff on late in the evening, like a-team, lavern and shirley, andy griffith, sex in the city?, happy days, king of the hill, and more, but the real prize if for people that want to watch international stations. There are a lot of Chinese, Taiwan (also chinese? don't know,) and arabic stations, especially on telstar 5. There are also hindi, punjabi, a few japanese, russian, polish, a few german, thai, vietnamese, and who knows what else types of stations on there.

The best way to figure out what channels you can get is to go to lyngsat.com, click on frequencies-america (61.5-160) or your nearest location, and then click on the Yellow or Green satellites. All C-Band satellites are in 4 digit numbers under the Freq TP, and the KU-Band will be 5 digital. All of the channels that are light beige in color will be your digital clear channels, and should be what you can get for free, without modifying your receiver.

You will not be able to get every single channel on every single satellite that is in your arc/patch, depending on your location, and the size of your dish. With my 33" fortec dish, I probably get about 80% of what is possible, and some of the transponders do cut out a bit, which would be fixed by upgrading to a 36 or 39 inch dish most likely, and the biggest solid ku-only dish being sold now is 48", which would probably give you everything you could get with ku digital.

Anyway, I haven't forgotten about the big dish. I am still hoping to slowly get one back up again, and the best part is that I can use my fta receiver and slave it to the analog c/ku band receiver when it's setup, and get who knows how much more channels.