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pondering... Hurricane Katrina
VertigoXX - Sep 1, 2005

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  VertigoXX Sep 1, 2005
Ya know... watching the news coverage on CNN and MSNBC, listening to the mayor of New Orleans go off on the radio about the lack of support they're getting from the federal government and relief organizations... Something came to mind.

If the disaster on the gulf coast had been caused by terrorists, would that motivate the feds and the red cross, etc. to stop talking and start acting?

Or is this a definite sign that this country could not withstand another 9/11?

There was a reporter on CNN, after seeing her own family's house and business completely gone, she basicaly said that "we" (meaning the news media) knew it was happening and were able to get there to cover it, why weren't the national guard and red cross prepared for it?

It worries me to think that if we are this unprepared for a natural disaster that we watched for DAYS before it hit the coast, that we KNEW was going to wreck massive damage wherever it hit, and that we had time to get ready for, how could we expect to be prepared for something we can't see coming. Say Osama's buddies get their hands on one of Russia's missing nukes and take it to Iowa, or even a level 9 quake on the west coast, how do we expect to be prepared to handle the aftermath of something like that if we can't get the national guard sent in, can't cancel school for a week or two in Texas, Arizona, Tennessee, Alabama, and Georga so that the school busses can help evacuate the thousands of people that were not able to drive out before the storm hit, can't declare martial law and get troops in there to stop people from taking pot-shots at what few cops are left, can't get trucks full of bottled water and tankers full of fresh water to refill said bottles on their way south, can't get trucks of bread, cheese, and beef jerkey on their way to feed people who have no place, can't get supplies on the way to the various shelters like clothes and blankets and soap...

In the aftermath of 9/11, a feat of unimaginable porportions was pulled off. The nation came together and did everything that needed done to get help where it was needed. Why is this disaster so different?

 antime Sep 1, 2005
Terrorist attacks are small compared to natural disasters. On 9/11 a couple of buildings collapsed, nothing more. Now you have large parts of a city demolished (the New Yorkers, to their credit, also didn't start shooting at the firemen and police).

This does give some preview of what would happen if the big one finally hit California, though.

 Mr. Moustache Sep 1, 2005
The federal government should of been all over this long before it even happened. And the slow pace that they're taking with this now is just absolutely ridiculous... If we can't do better than this then I fear for our future. I have a big feeling though that this will end up being a hard learned lesson for many on all levels of government, and for the people in the area that decided to stick around to "check out" the big hurricane.

 ExCyber Sep 1, 2005

  
	
	

		
		

			why weren't the national guard and red cross prepared for it

I may be mistaken, but I think a rather large chunk of the National Guard was preoccupied.


  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by antime



Terrorist attacks are small compared to natural disasters.On 9/11 a couple of buildings collapsed, nothing more.

That is true of 9/11, but we were supposed to be preparing for so-called "NBC" (nuclear, biological, and chemical) threats, which could easily make an area uninhabitable and require prompt evacuation of large numbers of people to temporary shelter, plus provision of vital supplies such as food, water, and medicine.

 slinga Sep 2, 2005
Anyone have estimates of damage for 9/11? I heard numbers are high as $50 billion already for Katrina, which makes sense as parts of the city are under 15+ feet of water.

 it290 Sep 2, 2005
Not sure about the damage numbers for 9/11, but then again it's hard to calculate that kind of thing.. direct damage is one thing, but you also have to consider economic impact, not to mention the money spent on the wars and counter-terrorist stuff. Of course, if you look at NOLA, the levees could just as well have been blown up by terrorists and a similar amount of flooding would have occurred.

 RitualOfTheTrout Sep 2, 2005
Thats one things Iv been wondering, look at the problems being caused all over the country. I cant understand why they dont start building some new refineries else where. If terrorists attacked and completly destroyed sevral refineries we would be in the same boat, only the problem wouldnt be as simple as restoring power / crude oil supply.

Seems foolish to me that after 9/11 and realizing how dependent the economy is on oil that there are no steps being taken to create some sort of backup.

I also wondered about the delay for folks getting help. You would think that aid and what not would have been prepared to ship amd troops/volunteers ready to move out to that area as soon as the storm cleared considering it was forcast to hit at least 4-5 days ahead of time. Perhaps nobody thought it would really be that bad?

 tsumake Sep 3, 2005
I was talking about this thing with a friend from Prague. I think there a couple of reasons for the slow response:

1. The people of New Orleans were caught completely by surprise. They didn't realize the extent of the damage, or they couldn't imagine it could be that bad. So everybody's stunned.

2. The federal government, regardless of who's in charge, will always be slow in dealing with issues that aren't in the upper East Coast..... Remember, the important cities are the ones with a lot of money.

3. The sensationalist reporting the incident actually belittles the situation. When the reporters become obsessed with body counts and damage, we lose sense of the magnitude of the damage. It becomes a game. This is why I don't watch TV.

4. It's really bad out there, and apparently no one knows how to handle it. Americans don't like to be in situations where they don't know what to do, so they don't like to admit. We'd all like to assume that the problem will go away in two days, just like every other disaster....

I just read in the NY times today that military support is finally being sent out. I think it's time for charity organizations to come in start helping. I really don't care what kind it is. Bono can hold another concert for all I care (but I wonder if this is big enough for him). Money and manpower need to get there. That's what important. Not politics.

 Mr. Moustache Sep 3, 2005
I'm not sure if any of us are talking politics... We knew this was happening, it was very obvious this was a HUGE storm long before it ever made landfall. The government should of been all over this long before hand, they should of had troops, copters, food and water all on stand by for when the storm was over. Like I said though.. If something like this happens again though I'm willing to bet they will.

 VertigoXX Sep 3, 2005
Funny... The day after I wrote this, this was the topic on all the news shows.

I think Kanye West said it best: "George Bush doesn't care about black people." and "I hate the way they portray us in the media. If you see a black family, it says they're looting. See a white family, it says they're looking for food."

 IceDigger Sep 4, 2005
I was talking to my 80 year old grandmother who did volunteer work at the Astrodome..

They served poboys and sandwiches for lunch today at the astrodome. The evacuees would not even come to a counter to pick up their food they had to have it passed out. She said most of the black people bitched and moaned about the food without even eating it and some even chunked it in the garbage still sealed. She also said many requested "Beer, fried chicken, and weed" from my 80 year old grandmother.....

She was also talking about how trashy the people are there. They don't throw anything away and leave it EVERYWHERE. According to her the astrodome smells horrible and people would just go to the stands and piss on the seats or take a dump in the aisle instead of using the restroom or porto-shitters. They had to make numerous announcements about this on the loud speaker after which the crowed would yell "Shut the fuck up, we gonna do what we fucking want."

 Mr. Moustache Sep 4, 2005

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by IceMan2k@Mon, 2005-09-05 @ 04:29 AM



I was talking to my 80 year old grandmother who did volunteer work at the Astrodome..



They served poboys and sandwiches for lunch today at the astrodome. The evacuees would not even come to a counter to pick up their food they had to have it passed out. She said most of the black people bitched and moaned about the food without even eating it and some even chunked it in the garbage still sealed. She also said many requested "Beer, fried chicken, and weed" from my 80 year old grandmother.....



She was also talking about how trashy the people are there. They don't throw anything away and leave it EVERYWHERE. According to her the astrodome smells horrible and people would just go to the stands and piss on the seats or take a dump in the aisle instead of using the restroom or porto-shitters. They had to make numerous announcements about this on the loud speaker after which the crowed would yell "Shut the fuck up, we gonna do what we fucking want."




[post=139201]Quoted post[/post]


And black people don't want to be stereotyped?? While it's the minority(meaning the minority of black people vs the majority of black people) that ruins it for us all.. If even half of that is true that's some rude shit and they should be slapped(the ones doing it). Take your damn food and appreciate it.

But I'm willing to bet that it wasn't just black people being rude..

 SkankinMonkey Sep 4, 2005
Maybe if they gave them weed they woulda chilled out and ate the nasty sammiches when they got the munchies. hehe

 SkankinMonkey Sep 5, 2005
An article from a guy I know in the Pentagon.

*****The Consequences of a Hollow Government*****

I am still sorting out the stories from the Gulf coast disaster area - what is true, what is rumor, what is partisan propaganda, what is exaggerated, and what is much worse than being reported. As far as I can see, the problem is much deeper than the incompetence of various government levels - local, state, and federal.

There has been a longterm degradation of basic infrastructure. Consider not just the levees but also airport security and the electrical grid that failed over the northeast a few years ago. The fiasco of a war with Iraq â due to the gullibility of our political and military leadership â has led to the diversion of basic resources including much of the National Guard and the budget of FEMA.

The extraordinary folly of the politicians that is so glaring now. Yes, it has been amplified by partisans of various parties - Republican propagandists blaming local Democratic leaders â as with pointing to a fleet of unused buses, and Democrats pointing to the Homeland Security leaders' striking ignorance of the scale of the disaster.

New Orleans city government makes Philadelphia look good. The governor's preparation for the disaster seems to have been simply to urge the people to pray to lighten the hurricane.

Some of the armed forces were prepared ahead of time to move in and start work, but they could not act without Bushâs authorization. Bush neglected to give it. FEMA has not only been negligent, they have actively sabotaged attempts by local government and private individuals to assist.

Helicopter flights were grounded while Bush was visiting, but fake food distribution sites and levee-repair projects were set up as photo backdrops, dismantled right after the President left.

As for blaming the residents of New Orleans â a lot has been rightly made of the orders to evacuate that were not backed up by supplying the means â vehicles and stockpiled gasoline.

The containment of the black poor in ghettos and prisons, managed by the criminal justice and welfare systems, and stunted by disastrous schools, starved of serious employment, and overrun by predatory gangs, has turned the evacuation into a botched nightmare, with the military called in and treating New Orleans like Falluja, and the rest of the state afraid to take in the refugees. That fear of all blacks based on accounts of a few rogues has been a serious impediment.

Homeland security was supposed to streamline bureaucracy but instead it has made it even less flexible. It is flexibility that enables a species to survive. Why has FEMA turned away offers of aid? Why have they turned away cars and boats of private citizens and major politicians to join the rescue efforts? Why has the US govt turned away offers of aid from foreign countries?

I have heard predictions of exactly this scenario of a flooded New Orleans for years, and am still stunned that the government did not prepare for such a likely contingency. Do they even read the papers? Do they even take into account the work of scientists?

I take it that the severity of the hurricane may not be directly attributed to human-induced global warning and that it may be part of a normal cycle in the climate. While global warming may not be proven as a factor, it certainly looks likely, as hurricanes result from ocean warmth.

Voters have been harangued by conservative propaganda for so long that too many of them thought small government was a desirable goal: now the government lacks the resources to carry out its most basic functions.

We have a fake president unable to deal with real problems. We have a hollow government led by people who are just actors out to play politicians on TV, guided by faith that things will turn out all right rather than by reality, strategy, evidence, and the most basic of human needs.

It should be possible to mobilize the resources of a country to solve its problems.

Name Removed

*****

 SkankinMonkey Sep 6, 2005
Also see:

http://atrios.blogspot.com/2005_09_04_atri...59638...

and

http://movies.crooksandliars.com/Olbermann...%20-K...

 KuKzz Sep 6, 2005
Yup, yup, blame everything on Bush. While this was very unorganized, bringing politics to everything is just wrong.

 Cloud121 Sep 6, 2005
Barbara Bush:


  
	
	

		
		

			"And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway so this (she chuckled)--this is working very well for them."


What THE FUCK?!

 mal Sep 6, 2005

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by SkankinMonkey@Wed, 2005-09-07 @ 01:49 AM



An article from a guy I know in the Pentagon.



[snip]



Name Removed



*****




[post=139265]Quoted post[/post]


According to this site..., it comes from a guy named John.

 SkankinMonkey Sep 6, 2005
Ah, I didn't know he wanted his name published. oh well.

 Mask of Destiny Sep 6, 2005
While there would certainly seem to be plenty of blame to go around, I think a lot of this lies at the state and local level. They are supposed to be the first responders. The federal government is rarely good at doing anything fast.

They waited too long to reverse inbound lanes to decrease backup. They completely dropped the ball on getting people without cars out of the city. The New Orleans police department didn't seem to have any kind of contingency plan to keep the chain of command intact when infrastructure failed. It was a big mess and they had many of the same problems (to a lesser degree) when Ivan hit. Have they done anything to address those issues since Ivan? Doesn't seem like it.

For some first hand converage from outside the mainstream media, check out this blog: http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/... It's pretty cool. Run by the crisis manager for a data center in New Orleans.

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