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Fuel line freeze or something else?
RitualOfTheTrout - Jan 27, 2006
    RitualOfTheTrout Jan 27, 2006 
This morning I went out to start my car as usual, turned the key and the engine turned over and sounded like it was about to start but it didnt. I tried again with the same result. I waited a few mins tried again, and after about the 6th try it started right up.

Weve had abnormally warm temps all january but last night we had a rather quick temp drop, and it was like 10 degrees. I would think the sharp temperature contrast would be a good chance for condensation in the gas tank to occur.

I also got the oil changed, being lazy I took it to one of the 10 minute penzoil places, I have always used 5w30 as per the manufacturer recomendations, but the guy put in 10w30, when I questioned him he said it doesnt matter on a engine with almost 150,000 miles on it. Im wondering if the higher viscosity of the oil and such a low temp caused the start up problems?

My oil gauge has gone crazy over the past month, when I first start the engine the pressure is pegged at full, then after it reaches normal operating temp is seems to be normal until i engine RPMs when it peggs out again. Seems it could be the oil gauge, the sender or the oil pump. Perhaps the thicker oil was to much for a dieing oil pump?

Finally, there has been an abnormal whining sound coming from around the fuel tankgtrfthrfgv

The engine wanted to turn over but just didnt quite make it almost like it wasnt getting fuel, but I dont know. Never had this problem before until today, but typically I put additives in during the winter to remove water from the fuel, being so warm lately I kinda just didnt bother.

So what do you guys think? Fuel line freeze or some problem with the oil?

    VertigoXX Jan 27, 2006 
You shouldn't see any difference between 5w and 10w oil. If anything, the 10w is better, ESPECIALY for an older car that could likely be burning oil. Sounds like it could be something with the fuel pump, the starter, or oil leaked into your cylinders. I know if my car (with 120,000+ miles) sits for more than 48 hours, I have trouble getting it started because too much oil has leaked into the cylinders and keeps them from firing right away. (It burns WAY too much oil, I have to add a quart every week or two. I'll be getting rid of it next month once my medical insurance kicks in and I can afford a car payment again.) So my question is, did the car sit for a longer period of time than usual before you tried to start it?

    Alexvrb Jan 27, 2006 
If you don't leak or burn oil, stick with the recommended viscosity. However, at those temperatures it doesn't make a significant difference. With a 5w30 conventional oil vs a comparable 10w30 conventional, the 5w30 will typically give you very slightly easier cold cranking and better lubrication until the engine warms up. So no, 10w30 isn't always better for a higher mileage engine. Most people don't know WTF they're talking about when it comes to lubricants. Not all "high mileage" engines are the friggin same. Not all NEW engines are the same. I had an '87 Caprice with a 305 and at 180k MIXED driving the engine didn't leak or burn ANY oil - and I was running 5w30 Castrol Syntec, which is even thinner than the conventional 5w30 it was born and raised on. Do you leak or burn oil?

However, by the same token, I could have put 20w50 in that same motor, and it would have cranked over fine. It just wouldn't have protected it as well, clearances weren't that wide and a good protective film wouldn't have easily formed. So no, a 10w30 is not going to hurt it even if it calls for 5w30 (which I don't know that it does). Certainly would not cause that problem. As for the starter, if it cranks good (rerr rerr rerr) like it wants to start, its not the starter.

As far as moisture in the line... yeah, it can be a problem at those temperatures. Every winter (and it doesn't even typically get that cold here) I'll throw in a bottle of pure isopropanol (isopropyl alcohol) once each month. You may find it advertised as "Iso-Heet" (red bottle) or "Water remover". When it doubt, check the back of the bottle and look to see that it is isopropyl alcohol. Methyl can keep the gas from freezing (think regular yellow bottles of Heet), but it isn't as good at removing the water. Also roughly every oil change is a good time to remember to run some decent injector cleaner. My preferences are Gumout Regane (clear yellow), Redline SI-1, Seafoam (although mostly for vacuum induction, not so much in the tank), Chevron Techron, BG 44K, maybe a few others.

However... the sounds coming from your tank would be your fuel pump. What kind of car is this? Fuel pumps don't last forever, especially if you aren't regularly changing the fuel filter. Might want to consider changing the fuel filter if it hasn't been done in a long while. Keep an eye on things, the pump might be in need of replacement at some point here. Pull your plugs and see if they're fouled. Fouled plugs will also certainly cause hard starts. Sometimes a little premium starting fluid helps if its a fuel or ignition issue, but it's a PITA to use on modern vehicles.

Long story short: Oil fine. Suspect fuel and/or ignition in need of maintenence.

Vertigo: Are you sure oil is leaking into your combustion chambers with the vehicle off? There are other cold start culprits. The plugs could be fouling from it burning oil when it was running, and once it cools off it won't want to restart. If it really is leaking badly when the ignition is off... sounds like its in dire need of a valve job. Switching to an additive-heavy "high mileage" oil of a reasonably high viscosity can sometimes help, but honestly usually not much if it is indeed the valve seals and not the piston rings.

Edit: DO NOT USE RUBBING ALCOHOL! I had a guy use rubbing alcohol because I told him that the "dry gas" aka water remover with isopropyl alcohol was much better at removing water than a regular gasline "antifreeze". See, rubbing alcohol has WATER in it too. Usually like 30%. It's bonded to the isopropanol, so its not a huge deal, but at the very least it lost all its usefulness. Anyway, that's how isopropanol works. Add 1 liter of it to 1L of water and you do not get 2L.

    RitualOfTheTrout Jan 28, 2006 
The car is a 92 Pontiac Grand Prix and it was not sitting for a long period of time, probably about 14 hours at most.

Ok, so the oil is definitly not the cause thats good to know. I just wondered because of how the oil gauge was acting (pegged at full until the engine warms ups) I read that some cars have an oil pressure valve and that it could be stuck half open or something. Im not sure if my car has this however. So would I be correct in saying that chances are the oil guage is either a faulty gauge or the sending unit has gone bad?

The car has had its oil changed religiosly at about 3000 miles since Iv had it (got it with about 55K miles) I dont think its burning any oil, if it is its a very negligible amount as I do not have the need to add any oil between changes.

The fuel pump was changed about 5-6 years ago if memory serves me correct, and I just changed the fuel filter about 4 months ago. ( Try to do that about every 25K miles)

Ill try some of those additives you recomended, I usually use one of the total fuel system cleaners twice a year or so but maybe I should do it a bit more often given the age of the car.

Im guessing the problem is probably with the fuel pump, as the starter and battery were working fine. Usually when the fuel pump starts to go you get a bit of hesitation when you idol at a redlight then give it gas and sometimes it just stalls out but I havent noticed either of these symptoms so I wasnt sure.

    VertigoXX Jan 28, 2006 
Alexvrb, it's fine starting cold when its a matter of one day or so. Its just somewhere over the 48 hour mark that it starts to choke. The problem's somewhere between the valve seals and the head gaskets. The car's needs the engine completely removed and rebuilt, with all gaskets and seals replaced. It's a 94 Chevy Corsica. Everything that can be easily checked and/or replaced has been. (Even the not-so-easy to get to spark plugs that you must use two angle joints on your socket wrench to reach #1, plus have someone UNDER the car with a regular wrench to hold the socket in place but who is unable to reach the actual socket with the actual wrench. The #1 spark plug was still the original from when the car was built, the previous owner probably couldn't figure out how to get to it.) I've wanted to do the rebuild for about two years now, ever since it started using up the oil so quickly, but don't have the time or access to a backup vehicle that runs. But the engine isn't all that's wrong with it now, and I've had it for over 5 years, so it's just time for a new ride. I think the junkyard still pays $50 for a scrap car, and that's about all this one is worth.

    Alexvrb Jan 28, 2006 

  
Originally posted by RitualOfTheTrout+Sat, 2006-01-28 @ 12:15 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RitualOfTheTrout @ Sat, 2006-01-28 @ 12:15 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>The car is a 92 Pontiac Grand Prix and it was not sitting for a long period of time, probably about 14 hours at most.[/b]

Out of curiousity, which motor?

<!--QuoteBegin-R
itualOfTheTrout@Sat, 2006-01-28 @ 12:15 PM

Ok, so the oil is definitly not the cause thats good to know. I just wondered because of how the oil gauge was acting (pegged at full until the engine warms ups) I read that some cars have an oil pressure valve and that it could be stuck half open or something. Im not sure if my car has this however. So would I be correct in saying that chances are the oil guage is either a faulty gauge or the sending unit has gone bad?[/quote]I think you're going to be fine on that front. You generally can't have too much pressure with a stock pump. Higher viscosity oils can increase oil pressure in an ailing engine, although really it is better to first identify the cause of low oil pressure (eg ailing pump, or sludged motor - rarely an issue today). Anyway, some motors have a bypass valve, whereas many others rely on a bypass valve in the oil filter. What filter did they put on?

    beninaber Jan 28, 2006 
Is it a carburetor engine? If so i had the same sort of symptoms in the cold a while back... turned out the carb was dieing, not enough oxygen getting to the mix in the cylinders... could be the air filter into the carb needs changing also (all assuming it is a carb engine)

    RitualOfTheTrout Jan 29, 2006 

  
Originally posted by Alexvrb@Sun, 2006-01-29 @ 06:55 AM

Out of curiousity, which motor?

[post=143875]Quoted post[/post]


Its a V6 3.1 liter engine.

As for the oil filter, its a penzoil brand filter im not sure of the model number.

When I do the change myself I always used an AC Delco PF52

Perhaps I could try and put that brand of filter on and see if it makes a difference? I do recall the guy saying hey this calls for a something something but theres a A92 (or something to that effect) oh well ill replace it with the same one thats on there. So maybe they put a filter on thats not the right one to use?

My only other question then would be will I loose alot of oil trying to change the filter without draining the pan and what not first? Iv always removed the oil before taking the filter off.

Edit:

Well I just tried starting it up today after letting it sit for about 48 hours. Started up on the first try but it studdered and sounded like it was about to stall for the first 5 -6 seconds. Temps today are in the 50s so im sure that has nothing to do with it. Put in some fuel system cleaner and water removing add-ins. I guess Ill find out after I run the gas through if that helps solve the problem.

    Alexvrb Jan 29, 2006 
Hmm, I've had very little trouble from the 3100 in my bro's Lumina. Check your plugs. The main issue with them is that their intake gaskets go bad every once in a while. Motor itself is pretty solid. Could also be an issue with idle air or emission components, but I think you'd notice at times other than a cold (engine, not weather) start. So still most likely fuel issues.

As for the oil filter, PF52 is the stock filter for your engine. I don't know why it would show up in their system as anything else but a PF52 equivalent. It may use a seperate bypass valve, though. You would not lose much oil changing the filter. You could change it and then add 1/4 a quart and check the level to see if you needed a little more.

    lordofduct Jan 29, 2006 
personally it just sounds like water in the gas to me

a quick drop in temp

water condensed in your gas tank

it sank to the bottom of the tank which is where the fuel is drawn from.

The first start sucked up that water and didn't start your car the first few times.

2 days later you started again with even less water and it started but sucked up a bit more causing it to sputter.

Of course with the vague symptoms it could be other things... but i'm to tired to type now...

    Mask of Destiny Jan 30, 2006 

  
Originally posted by Alexvrb@Sat, 2006-01-28 @ 04:55 AM

Edit: DO NOT USE RUBBING ALCOHOL! I had a guy use rubbing alcohol because I told him that the "dry gas" aka water remover with isopropyl alcohol was much better at removing water than a regular gasline "antifreeze". See, rubbing alcohol has WATER in it too. Usually like 30%. It's bonded to the isopropanol, so its not a huge deal, but at the very least it lost all its usefulness. Anyway, that's how isopropanol works. Add 1 liter of it to 1L of water and you do not get 2L.


Technically the alcohol and the water aren't bonded. It's just that water and alcohol are miscable and will form a solution whereas gasoline and water will not. Adding isopropyl really just makes the water burnable (well technically the alcohol and water form a solution that's burnable). I'm not sure how well that 70% isopropyl will burn, but 90% Isopropyl rubbing alcohol is easy to get and should work fine (my boss used to dump a bottle of rubbing alcohol in the tank of his old junky volvos if he ran out of gas).

Here in Connecticut all the gas has 10% ethanol in it already which theoretically should have the same effect.

    Alexvrb Jan 31, 2006 
Oxygenated gasoline does help remove trace amounts of water from the tank, but if you don't have it where you live, your best additive is straight isopropanol. Unless you can find like 99% rubbing alcohol. The 10% ethanol also drops your fuel economy a few percent in most vehicles.

    RitualOfTheTrout Jan 31, 2006 
Well after running about 100miles with the fuel cleaners and water removers in seems to be going just great! I crawled under the car yesterday while it was running to get a better look at the gas tank, and its actually vibrating a little bit along with the high pitched humming sound, so I should probably start thinking about investing in a new fuel pump as I doubt it is acting normal. The oil gauge problem is most likely a problem with the guage itself or the sending unit as yesterday when I turned the ignition on it showed oil pressure at 80psi and the engine wasnt even on.

Anyways, I thought it was bad to run your engine on alcohol if you usually use gasonline? Let alone running on rubbing alcohol. Thats interesting to hear though, as I was probably misinformed.

    VertigoXX Jan 31, 2006 

  
Originally posted by RitualOfTheTrout@Tue, 2006-01-31 @ 10:48 AM

Anyways, I thought it was bad to run your engine on alcohol if you usually use gasonline?


It just depends on how big the racetrack is.

I do know running a race engine on alcohol requires a different carburetor. A lot of drivers will run alcohol for the heat races and qualifying, then switch to gas for the feature.

    Alexvrb Jan 31, 2006 
It depends on the engine. Some engines/engine puters are designed to run on larger percentages of alcohol or pure alcohol. Like flex fuel motors. Flex fuel engines are fuel injected and have heavily computer controlled ignition/fuel delivery and perform on-the-fly adjustments based on current mixture. So for carbed racing apps its probably just easier and faster for them to have two carbs built to burn different mixtures (alcohol and high octane gasoline, respectively) than to adjust/modify a carb every time. Seal compatibility and fuel metering come to mind.

However, pretty much all gas engines for some time have been ready to run up to 10% ethanol. As for rubbing alcohol, again, I said don't do it. It will burn, but not as well as pure isopropanol, and nowhere near as well as gasoline. So while it shouldn't hurt your engine, it may run a bit shitty and get worse economy. Plus it won't help you remove existing water. Again, unless you can maybe get some 99% rubbing alcohol.

As for your fuel pump, they make a little noise in normal operation. If your pump does kick the bucket, make sure when you replace it that you replace the fuel filter and strainer at the same time. On your oil, I would personally change the filter now, but then again I would never take it to an 'iffy lube or similar joint. But you'll be fine anyway. You could put just about anything in that motor. I run M1 and a PF47 in my 3800, because I'm rough on it and want it to last. Short trips and mostly city-like driving conditions. Engine probably spends more time in open loop than closed.