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joe81 - Apr 29, 2003

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  joe81 Apr 29, 2003
What is the point of teaching your students to be good American citizens if you yourself cannot accept and be open to the beliefs of others? Why should you teach them about accepting others and their beliefs if you yourself do not practice them? Do not speak badly of me again for you yourself are a hypocrite.

The flag is a representation of America, a country based off of religious freedoms, and you pledge to it because you believe in America and what it stands for. I am an American I do enjoy the freedoms of America and would not trade the world for them. Why do I not pledge, because I do not believe in pledging an allegiance to a flag even if it is symbolically a representation of what America is and stands for. I do not believe in placing importance on an icon, that is my belief and it is a part of my over all belief system. If my not pledging were an offense to you and the other faculty members you should have confronted or asked me about it as soon as you observed it; I would have explained to you why I do not, but it was your choice to not ask but assume why I did not pledge and then criticize me for it. I am sorry that everyone took such an offense to my beliefs I do understand why you would feel the way you did because to you it seemed disrespectful, but to me it would be incredibly disrespectful to have expected me to pledge.

I am not bothered by any of the other remarks on the evaluation paper; I accepted them for what they are an aid. I will use the evaluation to improve myself on the whole. I do understand how I did not talk to the students and interact that much with them. This is because in this world today everything is misinterpreted and I feared that interacting with the students and becoming friendly would have looked strange to others. I know that it is an important part of teaching the interaction between student and teacher and that there should be open dialoged between the two, but I did not know how to be with the students while observing. An example of this occurred when one of the students hugged me because it was our 2nd from last day. I did not know how to respond to this so I just stood their because I did not want the situation to be misinterpreted.

Thank you for allowing me into your school and onto your team and providing me with the opportunity to see what it is like in a modern middle school setting. Even though I took offense to the comments about pledging the experience was of great importance to me.

Thank you,

 Zziggy00 Apr 29, 2003
wanna explain the situation, like what exactly happened...? Fine paper though, but who knows if it will cause more good than harm...haha guess that kinda goes along with the point of the letter.

 joe81 Apr 29, 2003
I'm trying to become a teacher. I had to student observe this semester. What that is being in the classroom setting and seeing how it is. My host teachers had to grade me on my behavior and proffesionalism. They toar me apart and gave me an over all rating of D(failure). The one main gripe they seemed to have against me was that i didn't pledge. That seemed to piss them off. This is going to be an email to the woman that was incharge of me being at the middle school she gave me my grade and was one of the host teachers i had to observe.

 Quadriflax Apr 29, 2003
What grade did you observe and for what subject? Also, a lot of it depends on what else they said about you. If that's their only gripe, then yes, that's a problem. But if you're missing other aspects and/or are blinded by the comment they made about you not saying the pledge, that's something else entirely.

 gamefoo21 Apr 29, 2003
what the usa culturally accepts others HAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :bs there is a reason your country is a melting pot there is a reason why you call yourselves American nothing else. no one dares fly a flag from another country in alot of places down there. i guess its part of the cultural meltingpot syndrome. and you are rite you are allowed to freely worship and there aren't many freedoms left in your country. as bush is making sure of that.

sorry end of rant. :cheers

and good luck with your arguement

 Gallstaff Apr 29, 2003
I thought you were american, where are you from gamefoo?

 Tindo@heart Apr 29, 2003
It's funny how people that don't live in this country seem to know more about it than us.

joe81, I enjoyed your letter and understood your view on not wanting to idolize an icon. However, teachers get pissy about things like respect and honor.

Teachers are ususally required to put aside their personal beliefs and teach what the system gives. You sound like you are enforcing your religious beliefs on the students. That's a big no-no.

 Resident_Lurker Apr 29, 2003
It's respectful to stand up with the rest of the people who are pledging even if you don't beleive in the custom yourself. Simple as that.

 Tindo@heart Apr 29, 2003

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by Resident_Lurker@Apr 29, 2003 @ 07:27 PM



It's respectful to stand up with the rest of the people who are pledging even if you don't beleive in the custom yourself. Simple as that.


Great point. I hate I overlooked it. Especially if you are a guest. If I was visiting another country and they said allegence, I would plege allegence to their flag. I would feel rotten if I just sat there. It would feel akward and rude.

 Zziggy00 Apr 29, 2003

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by Resident_Lurker@Apr 29, 2003 @ 06:27 PM



 It's respectful to stand up with the rest of the people who are pledging even if you don't beleive in the custom yourself. Simple as that.


well put

 Quadriflax Apr 29, 2003

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by Resident_Lurker@Apr 29, 2003 @ 07:27 PM



 It's respectful to stand up with the rest of the people who are pledging even if you don't beleive in the custom yourself. Simple as that.


This is America. Nothing is simple.

 joe81 Apr 29, 2003
no see i did stand, i stood everytime and no i did not try to impose my views on others. hell i dont care what anyone is i accept people's views i'm a humanist at heart.

Also i do understand that there was other grading requirements as stated in the email. Just when teachers write a page on how i did not pledge it bothers me also the one teacher on the last day basically told me to pledge and since i had to do other things i did them and she got really pissed at that.(that requirment was to interview a student i left the room during their homeroom to interview the student).

I was in an 8th grade classroom the students were 13,14, and 15(ya there were some 15 yr old 8th graders).

if anyone wants to take a guess at what religion i am(since it was mentioned that i might have been enforcing a religion on students) then take a guess thing is you're going to have the worst luck guessing.

 emazur Apr 29, 2003
I respect your decision not to say the pledge, no one should be forced into accepting the customs of another, yet it seems some other posters here disagree. For instance, I`m a vegetarian. If I`m invited to eat dinner with a group of people who aren`t, should I be made to gulp down a steak? Hell no. Similarly, I would not insist that the others order only vegetarian food. The principle of "to each his own" applies in this case and in the pledge case (ironically, people are ignoring the line "with LIBERTY and justice for ALL".

On another point, as an aetheist, I very much object to the part "under God". I remember hearing about a case some months ago challenging the constitutionality of that, and this post reminded me of it so I did a Google search.

CNN article...

Some key parts include:

"Citing a concurring opinion in a Supreme Court decision, the 9th Circuit said, "The Pledge, as currently codified, is an impermissible government endorsement of religion because it sends a message to unbelievers 'that they are outsiders, not full members of the political community, and an accompanying message to adherents that they are insiders, favored members of the political community."

"The court said the 1954 insertion of "under God" was made "to recognize a Supreme Being" and advance religion at a time "when the government was publicly inveighing against atheistic communism" -- a fact, the court said, the federal government did not dispute.

The appeals court noted that when President Dwight D. Eisenhower signed the act adding "under God," he said, "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." (More on pledge's history)

The court cited recent U.S. Supreme Court decisions that said students cannot hold religious invocations because it violates the Constitution. (High court on pledge)"

I wasn`t aware until I read that that the phrase 'under god' was not originally part of the pledge, but added in '54 I some blanket effort to get everyone to be 'good, religious' Americans. An aetheist should not have to say something he does not believe in. Again what happened to "with LIBERTY and justice for ALL"?

 Zero 9 Apr 29, 2003
I believe you used the words "off of" incorrectly in the first sentance of paragraph two (maybe change to "on"?), infact 99% of the time people use "off of" annoyingly. "I fell off of the roof." This should be: "I fell off the roof," or something similar.

 joe81 Apr 29, 2003
good point i will change it, thanks.

 ExCyber Apr 29, 2003

  
	
	

		
		

			Teachers are ususally required to put aside their personal beliefs and teach what the system gives.


Any teacher who does that consistently is scarcely teaching. "The system" churns out a mind-boggling array of crap, especially in the social studies / history arena. What most kids get in those fields is a barely-there block of swiss cheese manipulated by various political interests (you'd be amazed at the facts and "bad words" a publisher will happily excise in exchange for state legislators and school boards approving/mandating their books).

Oh, and while I'm here, a fun fact: the pledge was written by a socialist. I do wonder how Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly etc. would react to that one...

 Tindo@heart Apr 30, 2003

  
	
	

		
		

			because I do not believe in pledging an allegiance to a flag even if it is symbolically a representation of what America is and stands for. I do not believe in placing importance on an icon, that is my belief and it is a part of my over all belief system.



  
	
	

		
		

			if anyone wants to take a guess at what religion i am(since it was mentioned that i might have been enforcing a religion on students) then take a guess thing is you're going to have the worst luck guessing.


I think that was me. I was lead to assume that your belief system was an influence on your inability to fit in with a class tradition. Excuse me if you did not mean "religion" when you said "over all belief system."

However, I like guessing games. So I guess Atheist.

ExCyber, right on! I agree with every word. Though I don't think it's a good idea to try to get in the door as a rebellious radical. A school system is not going to hire a controversial figure. Why bother? They want non-fussy teachers to just teach what their told. Period.

An inspiring teacher should at least attempt to pretend that they can put their personal beliefs to the side for a moment. Though no one can be expected to adhere to this consistently, but teachers are expected to do what their told.

Basically, I just don't think it is very wise to make a first impression with a chip on your shoulder.

 M3d10n Apr 30, 2003
You have to pledge *everyday* at school in USA?

Geez... that's so weird. It's the kind I'd expect to see in a ditactorship.

At school, here, the closest thing to that was the students being gathered outside and sing the anthen while a teacher hoists the flag. But that only happened once in a while (every two or three months, I think), and only until a certain grade.

 antime Apr 30, 2003

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by M3d10n@Apr 30, 2003 @ 01:57 PM



 At school, here, the closest thing to that was the students being gathered outside and sing the anthen while a teacher hoists the white flag.


Wait.. Are you French?

 emazur Apr 30, 2003
Don`t know about everyone else, but I had to pledge when I was elementary school. After 4th grade I moved to a different state and entered middle school, and never had to pledge again

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