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Clone CD Images

Bootnut - Feb 26, 2003

		Bootnut		Feb 26, 2003
			I downloaded the game Grid Runner in a CloneCD format. I burned it, and it loads, but after the first round and the bonus round, the screen goes black as if to load, but then doesn't load anything, disc just keeps spinning. So, looking at the image in CCD, I see that the first audio track doesn't have a pregap of 2 seconds. I converted the CCD image to bin/cue using CDMage. Again, the first audio track is not given a pregap. Could it be as simple as adding the pregap to the cue file? Or does CCD just not copy saturn games correctly? Thanks. Bootnut

		mal		Feb 26, 2003
			I don't think it's as simple as just altering the cuesheet. If you do want to try fixing the lack of a pre gap, extract the tracks from the Clone CD image as an iso and wav files. Then create a cuesheet, either by using Lodger's Cue Maker... or rolling your own, and burn it as you would any other iso/wav. I'm not sure that doing that will fix the problem you are having though.

		Bootnut		Feb 26, 2003
			Thanks for the suggestion. I may have jumped the gun by assuming it was a clone cd problem! I tried the alternate swap technique (as described in my other current thread in this group), without the ram cart in, and now I can play well past the first bonus round. The place that it was freezing at before was, apparently, the save game spot, which looks to have support for a cart. So, perhaps it just doesn't like my cartridge! Thanks again. Bootnut

		Taelon		Feb 26, 2003
			Don't get me wrong, but I'm glad that turned out to be the problem, and not the burn. I'm saying so because CloneCD is actually the MOST RELIABLE way of copying Saturn games (besides the iso/wav method). I used it to back up several original games 1:1 ...

		mal		Feb 26, 2003
			Why do you say that CloneCD is the most reliable?

		H.I.M.		Feb 26, 2003
			Because it definatly is... CloneCD is the best damn backup program ever made bye nero, cdrwin, dj... I mean they all serve a different purpose but CloneCD I would rate the best Especially for 1:1 ratio copies such as Taelon said.

		Zero 9		Feb 26, 2003
			Too bad region conversions seem to be almost impossible to do correctly on them.

MasterAkumaMatata

Feb 27, 2003

	
	
		
		
			Originally posted by Zero 9@Feb 26, 2003 @ 11:31 PM



Too bad region conversions seem to be almost impossible to do correctly on them.

Actually, the I find that the IMG file of CloneCD image set (CCD, IMG, SUB) is a regular MODE1/2352 or MODE2/2352 ISO file, so you should be able to convert the region code with SatConv fine.

After you save a CloneCD image to a BIN+CUE using CDmage..., create an SFV file covering all files (CCD, IMG, SUB, BIN, CUE) and compare the CRC32 of the IMG file and BIN file. If they are the same, then they are the same file with different file names.

Then there is always the option of changing the region code on your own with the help of your trusty hex editor. This piece of source code to TyRaNiD's Saturn Country Converter Version 1.2:

Code:

    struct areacode areacodes[8] = {

{'J',"For JAPAN.         "},

{'T',"For TAIWAN and PHILIPINES. "},

{'U',"For USA and CANADA.     "},

{'B',"For BRAZIL.         "},

{'K',"For ASIA PAL area.     "},

{'A',"For KOREA.         "},

{'E',"For EUROPE.         "},

{'L',"For LATIN AMERICA.     "}

};

along with these two screenshots should be sufficient information to help you identify where you need to edit within the image file:

		mal		Feb 27, 2003
			Thanks for answering H.I.M/Jaded God, but I was asking Taelon.

		Jaded God		Feb 27, 2003
			Sorry mal If you use a converter cart or switch it might be easier than patching every game from a diff region to match yours... Just a thought.

Zero 9

Feb 27, 2003

	
	
		
		
			Originally posted by MasterAkumaMatata@Feb 26, 2003 @ 10:08 AM



 Actually, the I find that the IMG file of CloneCD image set (CCD, IMG, SUB) is a regular MODE1/2352 or MODE2/2352 ISO file, so you should be able to convert the region code with SatConv fine.

Nope, it seems to kill all region settings if you try (manually, or with any utility), although the game will probably still work if you are using a 4 in 1 cart, but then there was no reason to convert the region anyway. Need to convert to a cdrwin image or other first.

The problem must be something in the CloneCD format in other files than the IMG :\. If I remember correctly, conversion on raw images seemed to work fine.

Taelon

Feb 27, 2003

	
	
		
		
			Originally posted by mal@Feb 27, 2003 @ 06:49 AM



 Thanks for answering H.I.M/Jaded God, but I was asking Taelon.

Well... heh, heh.... it's just like Jaded God said (btw, welcome back dude, finally can post again eh?) - CloneCD is awesome for true 1:1 copies. And you can indeed use SatConv on the .img file to patch the region code before burning the image back to disc.

CloneCD copies everything verbatim, including the actual gap between data and audio tracks - which CDRWin completely skips and fills in via the cuesheet instead, and Nero? I'm not even sure how Nero handles gaps, but it's been widely known to seemingly burn Saturn bin/cues fine but then produce unreadable discs (I've had one with illegal track modes once).

Hope that's a satisfactory answer...

And now I have a question for MasterAkumaMatata:

Whenever you use SatConv on a raw-mode track or image (2352 bytes/sector), it seems you would be introducing an *error* by changing the region code without updating the error-correction information contained in the affected sector. Logic would dictate that when you burned such a patched raw-mode image back to disc, the CD recorder would either "correct" the region code back to what it was on the fly, or do so when reading the disc once it's burned.

Obviously this isn't the case. I'm wondering why that is. Does SatConv update error-correction info after all?

Or do CD recorders create new error-correction information from the contents in a sector, whatever they may be?

I've been wondering about this...

mal

Feb 27, 2003

	
	
		
		
			Originally posted by Taelon@Feb 28, 2003 @ 10:26 AM



CloneCD copies everything verbatim, including the actual gap between data and audio tracks - which CDRWin completely skips and fills in via the cuesheet instead, and Nero? I'm not even sure how Nero handles gaps, but it's been widely known to seemingly burn Saturn bin/cues fine but then produce unreadable discs (I've had one with illegal track modes once).



Hope that's a satisfactory answer...

Are you refering to the 150 or so sectors that King M has been talking about?

I was having trouble copying a CD with CDRWin a couple of days ago, so I thought I'd try readng it with CloneCD. I then was going to use CDmage to convert the files to bin/cue as my computer doesn't like to writing with CloneCD.

Anyway, I thought I'd try testing the data track to see why CDRwin wouldn't copy it and there were 2 bad sectors and then a block of 150 more at the end.

They repaired OK but it does leave me wondering...

MasterAkumaMatata

Feb 28, 2003

	
	
		
		
			Originally posted by Taelon@Feb 27, 2003 @ 06:26 PM



And now I have a question for MasterAkumaMatata:



Whenever you use SatConv on a raw-mode track or image (2352 bytes/sector), it seems you would be introducing an *error* by changing the region code without updating the error-correction information contained in the affected sector. Logic would dictate that when you burned such a patched raw-mode image back to disc, the CD recorder would either "correct" the region code back to what it was on the fly, or do so when reading the disc once it's burned.



Obviously this isn't the case. I'm wondering why that is. Does SatConv update error-correction info after all?



Or do CD recorders create new error-correction information from the contents in a sector, whatever they may be?



I've been wondering about this...

Judging from the source code of TyRaNiD's Saturn Country Code Changer, I don't think so.

Anyway, to be on the safe side, you can use CDmage to "Rebuild Sector Fields..." (found under the Action menu item) since we're dealing with raw images here and that feature is only available when handling raw images. That should update the ECC/EDC codes to reflect the country code conversion on the raw image file. Do that before burning and it should be fine.

		IBarracudaI		Feb 28, 2003
			Taelon, I've had that doubts for soo loong time... In my experience it seems newer burners correct the ecc/edc codes "on-the-fly" that is, re-generate them when burning... When I used my older burner, and tried to burn raw mode images, one of two things could happen... 1 - The burned cd was unreadable on a pc, but booted fine on a saturn (as saturn doesn't use error correction codes... so basically the saturn's cd-rom didn't bother with it..), when I say unreadable on pc... the first sector couldn't be read by any app, due to ecc/edc codes not matching the "user data"... Edit: These cds couldn't be booted without a convertor cartdrige.... 2 - Strangely enough, sometimes the burned cd seemed perfectly burned (and converted), but when hex viewing the first sector... The country code remained the same... (before patching) Now, my conclusions... (hehe, they may be very incorrect) As said before, newer burners seem to check the user data and regen the error correction codes "on-the-fly"... Older burners (namely those that don't support burning mixed-mode cds from cooked mode isos..), seem to to be fully dependent on the ecc/edc codes included in the raw mode isos...

		Taelon		Feb 28, 2003
			Fascinating, thanks for all the detailed info. Maybe it might indeed be a good idea to error-correct a raw image with CDmage _after_ patching its region, so long as the ECD fields are updated to reflect the changed data, and not vice versa. I had never thought of this back when I did patch raw-mode images, and once burned they all worked so I must've just been lucky with my HP 9100 drive. mal: Yes, it's exactly those 150 sectors I was talking about. And yes, these sectors are technically corrupted; actually they contain no useful data of any kind. But they're the reason CDRWin flatly refuses to rip bin/cue images of certain Saturn originals (and not others). The details would of course be different for each CD recorder... My drive is, for example, unable to write a raw-mode bin/cue of a dual-data-track game. Nero wrote it but produced a disc with illegal track modes (unreadable) and CDRWin reported that the drive refused the cuesheet. Damn all these technicalities. (I did end up buying the original game. It was Vatlva. )