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DBOY - Sep 27, 2003

		it290	Nov 9, 2003
		It's true that the industry is driven by money, but that's true anywhere. The things you mentioned about EA, Acclaim, and THQ could also be applied to a company like Squaresoft, IMHO. Hell, even Capcom (who still puts out a lot of good games) has done it's share of milking the cash cow with the RE franchise. I also agree that many dev houses have been destroyed by their parent companies, but I think companies like Valve, Troika, and Monolith are still putting out high quality games. Even EA and Acclaim put out good games once in a while. But I suppose it's like comparing Hollywood movies to independent films - Hollywood puts out something decent now and again, but the flow of good independent movies is more continuous because they're not as devoted to marketing.

		it290	Nov 9, 2003
		I also want to point out that Acclaim published the American versions of Virtual On : Oratorio Tangram and Ferrari F355 Challenge. So they do have some taste. Not to mention Atari's publishing of Ikaruga over here (although I suppose they're technically a Euro company now).

ratfish

Nov 9, 2003

Originally posted by ExCyber+Nov 6, 2003 @ 09:46 AM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ExCyber @ Nov 6, 2003 @ 09:46 AM)</div><div class='quotemain'>
Many of the best games of all time were made by Americans.

Yes, and most of those that people speak of were made by Americans like John Newcomer and Eugene Jarvis back in the late 70s and early 80s. Incidentally, this was before the American game industry was dominated by publishers like THQ, Acclaim, and EA who will scarcely consider releasing a game that isn't crudely bastardized to fit a popular TV show, movie, or sports franchise.[/b]

Don't forget our friends, Richard Garriot and Will Wright.

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xCyber@Nov 6, 2003 @ 09:46 AM

It's not that the Japanese have some genetic predisposition for good game design, it's that the industry there isn't possessed by a loathing for genuine talent. I can't think of a better example of this than Seamus Blackley's condemnation of Miyamoto's work (basically, he's pissed that Miyamoto wants to work on more Mario/Zelda games instead of something "different and truly awesome"; not surprisingly he mentions GTA3 as a template, though ironically it could be argued that Zelda was the template for GTA3 to begin with). The result of this is a stream of merely okay games from people who probably have the talent for making excellent games, but aren't supported by the industry in actually doing so. That is, I don't mean to say there are no good American games, I mean to say that the industry is dominated by pie charts and focus groups rather than by who makes good games. Just ask anyone who worked at Dynamix or Looking Glass Studios. You know, before their publishers defunded them so that they'd have more pocket money to throw at useless crap.[/quote]

Yes yes. Back on topic, thank the gods!

I agree with most of what you said, ExCyber. It's a sad but true fact that when a game does well, it's used like a template and similar games are mass-developed because companies are looking for a quick buck, so to speak.

I don't know if it's an American thing (it seems so at times), but this trend is a disgrace. And yes, there have been some innovative games here and there (more than enough to name a few examples of actually) that break that trend and say "Hey, look at me! I'm different and I'm cool!," (not that all "different" games are all good) and many times do those games have an impact on video game culture.

Radical ideas come to mind when I think about modern day video games and where they could be headed. Extreme alternatives are the only way I can see that will lead us to a new era of video game culture. With respect towards "visionaries" (I use this term loosely) like Gunpei Yokoi (inventor of the Virtual Boy), that guy that invented the Atari MindLink, and other ideas considered "weird" for their time (and still weird even now), I think that strange ideas inspire the way real developers think.

I'm not saying we need a new console or piece of hardware (i.e. virtual reality simulator) to bring about a change in the game industry, but creative thinking, and a new genre. If video games don't develop, and we're stuck with these endless reproductions of franchises, same genres, and basic templates, then it might invoke another Great Video Game Crash (see The Great Video Game Market Crash of 1984 c/o Atari).

-end rant thing-

-execute other opinions-

Now here are some recent titles and genres that I think helped shift the balance of video game culture. Feel free to add some titles and genres if I left any out.

Resident Evil and the survival-horror genre

Parappa, DDR, Rez, Frequency, and the music game genre

Final Fantasy (particularly 1, 6, and 7-10)

-one of the longest lasting RPG franchises, also recognized for their brilliant artwork and musical scores

The Sims and life simulators

Metal Gear Solid (Hideo Kojima = smart guy)

Seaman; although it's a "pet-sim" game at the core, it was way deeper, including a story and parts of the game where you need to take action to help him evolve

Shenmue; as Sega puts it, it's a F.R.E.E. game (Full Reactive Eyes Entertainment) do whatever you want to do, see whatever you want to see, many alternate ways to go, etc.

Incredible Crisis; one game strung together by mini-games following different characters' stories

Other games deserving honorable mention are ones that survive the ravagse of time, like King of Fighters (still a 2D fighter), Dragon Quest (2D longer than Final Fantasy I guess, and probably due to fantaticism over Akira Toriyama fan-people's obsession with it), and puzzle games such as Tetris and Bust a Move.

I'm going to stop now for fear of leaving out titles or mentioning ones that people won't consider "ground-breaking."

ExCyber

Nov 9, 2003

Don't forget our friends, Richard Garriot

Is he doing game design anymore? I heard he quit so he could hang out in his castle more (and because his publisher wouldn't pay for his last project), but you know how rumors can be.

and Will Wright.

Come to think of it, Wright is probably the only famous American game designer I can think of who's been around for a while, is still doing interesting stuff, and hasn't had to quit/sell the company and start over in order to keep the ball rolling.

I don't know if it's an American thing (it seems so at times), but this trend is a disgrace.

I don't think it's a purely American thing; I distinctly get the sense that it could happen just about anywhere. Depending on how the game industry and the world economy as a whole continue their baffling dance, I don't think a role reversal is out of the question at all. However, I think it's entirely more likely that Korea is the current rising star.

I'm not saying we need a new console or piece of hardware (i.e. virtual reality simulator) to bring about a change in the game industry, but creative thinking, and a new genre.

I think what we need is to start thinking less in terms of genres, at least to the point where we can see regular debates (themselves pointless, but the result of a healthy industry) over which label a game deserves. Many of the best games either defy classification, or add such a strong individual identity to an arguably genre-inspiried base that they border on defining a genre in themselves (I'd put Robotron 2084 out there as a random example, but it shouldn't be hard to think of your own favorite). There are of course companies out there like Treasure, Raizing, Psikyo, Squaresoft, Blizzard, etc. who can refine a purely genre game to a point where it's truly excellent, but I don't see that driving the industry's future.

it290

Nov 9, 2003

Don't forget Sid Meier, although he's obviously not working with MPS anymore since they don't exist.

ratfish

Nov 10, 2003

Originally posted by ExCyber+Nov 9, 2003 @ 09:45 PM--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ExCyber @ Nov 9, 2003 @ 09:45 PM)</div><div class='quotemain'>I think what we need is to start thinking less in terms of genres, at least to the point where we can see regular debates (themselves pointless, but the result of a healthy industry) over which label a game deserves. Many of the best games either defy classification, or add such a strong individual identity to an arguably genre-inspiried base that they border on defining a genre in themselves (I'd put Robotron 2084 out there as a random example, but it shouldn't be hard to think of your own favorite). There are of course companies out there like Treasure, Raizing, Psikyo, Squaresoft, Blizzard, etc. who can refine a purely genre game to a point where it's truly excellent, but I don't see that driving the industry's future.[/b]

Yes, I was getting wrapped up in genres. Thanks for pointing that out. It's not the genre that makes a new and innovative game.

But I was thinking, it's really just an endless cycle when a new successful genre is born, then we move back into the phase of using that game/genre as a template, mass-developing, the whole thing, and the cycle starts all over again.

So yes, genre-defying games, that's what I meant.

Originally posted by ExCyber@Nov 9, 2003 @ 09:45 PM

I heard he quit so he could hang out in his castle more

I wish I had a castle, heh.

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xCyber@Nov 9, 2003 @ 09:45 PM

(and because his publisher wouldn't pay for his last project), but you know how rumors can be.[/quote]

Ouch, that hurts. I'd hate to see the Ultima franchise go down (or are you talking about that Korean MMORPG he was localizing? anyways...)

Edit for shout-out to Sid Meier c/o it290. Almost forgot about him, he rocks too.

But then I'd have to mention one of my favorite (local) independant developers, Jeff Vogel. Long live the Seattle-indie-dev-isometric-RPG-Mac scene! :cheers