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Spyware/Trojans Multiple Attacks
Jaded God - Sep 16, 2004

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  it290 Sep 17, 2004
I'd believe that figure, but only on a machine that is not behind NAT.

 Alexvrb Sep 17, 2004
Yes, sadly many people just plug their USB cable modem into their Dell and off they go.

 Jaded God Sep 17, 2004
I had people looking at my HijackThis log and I updated Windows again and this just happened, later on!

My computer just flickered and my old wallpaper is now on my desktop and no program icons... THEY ARE ALL OFF... I am going to restart and see what happens.

I restarted and my wallpaper is back but the ICONS are ALL GONE!!! What is going on!?!

Sucks.

 it290 Sep 17, 2004
I suggest you just say screw it and start over.

 Jaded God Sep 17, 2004
Full format? Blah I hate doing formats.. I have so much shit to back up on dvd-r it isn't even funny. Then I have to find a few exe files I didn't save... Bah

 Alexvrb Sep 17, 2004
Hopefully next time you'll properly protect yourself, and you won't have to resort to drastic measures.

 Jaded God Sep 18, 2004
Properly protect myself??? I did. Just to let you know I fixed up everything and registry values and I am now using Mozilla Firefox which blows IE out of the water.

 gameboy900 Sep 18, 2004
And do you have a HARDWARE firewall/router?

Alot of spyware/trojans/whatever look for open ports on your PC to try to break in through. The ONLY way to trully get rid of that is to use a hardware firewall which will make it appear to the internet that your PC isn't even there (except if you purposely open or forward specific ports). Software firewalls only work well when something ON your PC is trying to get out.

 it290 Sep 18, 2004
Contrary to popular belief, NAT is not a firewall, and dropping packets does not make you completely invisible. And a hardware firewall is not inherently more secure than a software one.

 Alexvrb Sep 18, 2004
If you set ZA on high (which I don't, mind you) it stealths your ports. If you have a hardware firewall, I see no reason why you still wouldn't have a software firewall too, for program control.

 gameboy900 Sep 19, 2004
Like I said a hardware firewall makes your IP look like it's unused (unless you forward pots) to port scanners. This prevents attacks that relly on exploits in certain protocols to work. A hardware firewall doesn't protect you from bad stuff going OUT of your PC. A software firewall would help there. Having both is really the best solution.

Personally I don't use a software firewall since I'm careful about what I allow to run on my PC in the first place.

And yes NAT doesn't protect your PC but that's not what I'm talking about. The routers you can buy for $50 these days have hardware firewalls that ignore unknown packets (there by timing out the scanner). Basically a packet from the internet first goes through the firewall and then if it's verified goes through NAT to the appropriate PC.

 ExCyber Sep 20, 2004

  
	
	

		
		

			Contrary to popular belief, NAT is not a firewall


NAT is a specialized type of firewall functionality; it routes based on the retained state of outgoing connections instead of on a static ruleset. That being said, it's no substitute for the flexibility of a fully configurable firewall with advanced security measures (e.g. dropping all packets from a particular host if it sends to more than a few denied ports or otherwise engages in immediately recognizable misbehavior). So yes, a NAT router is a firewall, but not necessarily a very good one.


  
	
	

		
		

			dropping packets does not make you completely invisible.


Nothing makes you completely invisible if you are communicating with a system that the attacker controls, or if the attacker has out-of-band information to confirm the presence of your computer on the Internet. That being said, dropping unauthorized packets certainly makes your system less readily visible.


  
	
	

		
		

			a hardware firewall is not inherently more secure than a software one


It is in some regard unless you can configure the software firewall to run in its own address space without access to the native IPC mechanisms of the system you're trying to protect (in some sense I guess this is almost the definition of a "hardware firewall"). Otherwise trojans can potentially take over the OS and disable the firewall.


  
	
	

		
		

			A hardware firewall doesn't protect you from bad stuff going OUT of your PC.


Actually it can, but it's a pain in the ass to set up because your apps need to support an arbitration/authentication protocol (SOCKS) and management of the authentication comes with its own set of security concerns.

 CrazyGoon Sep 20, 2004
Nope, I was serious. Firewall is the way to go. All those other programs just eat up your resources, and tell you that they have eliminated 100 more defunct trojans/ spyware - which is totally unnecessary in the first place. And schi0249, that's the first time I've heard of such a thing, but I don't see how it's supposed to solve any problems.

 Alexvrb Sep 20, 2004

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by CrazyGoon@Sep 21, 2004 @ 02:58 AM



 Nope, I was serious. Firewall is the way to go. All those other programs just eat up your resources, and tell you that they have eliminated 100 more defunct trojans/ spyware - which is totally unnecessary in the first place. And schi0249, that's the first time I've heard of such a thing, but I don't see how it's supposed to solve any problems.


A program does not take up resources when it and all components of it are not running. So I see no reason why you can't run a program to kill spyware/adware and then close it afterwards. Second, those "harmless" spyware programs are not always so harmless. Even if they were, they DO take up system resources, unlike a non-running program that just finished cleaning your computer up. I've worked on enough computers clogged up with the garbage. Any weekend PC repair guy can tell you that

 ExCyber Sep 20, 2004
Another thing to keep in mind about spyware is that they are network programs and are often sloppily programmed. Can you say "stack smashing"?

 CrazyGoon Sep 21, 2004

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by Alexvrb@Sep 20, 2004 @ 10:39 PM



 A program does not take up resources when it and all components of it are not running. So I see no reason why you can't run a program to kill spyware/adware and then close it afterwards.


Oh yeah. I forgot that you don't need those programs running all the time.

I do find it hard to believe that spyware and trojans are a threat to computers. But I may be missing the point if they aren't supposed to harm computers in the first place... but the way I look at it - if it doesn't kill my machine (or nearly kill it by slowing it down heaps) then I'm not going to loose sleep over silly little 'network programs'.

 Curtis Sep 21, 2004
Your choice I guess, but when your ISP shuts you down for sending out 25Gb of spam a month because your computer acts as a spam relay, don't come crying to us.

..or if your CC details are stolen, or your passwords guessed, or your email account is flooded with pron...etc, etc.

 schi0249 Sep 21, 2004

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by CrazyGoon@Sep 21, 2004 @ 04:58 AM



 And schi0249, that's the first time I've heard of such a thing, but I don't see how it's supposed to solve any problems.


The majority of people don't know when spam is being sent through their pc. What we do is kill the internet connection and notify what we see and how to fix it. We then turn it on after they fix it. If the problem continues, we require they have it professionally serviced before re-enabling it. This is all handled on both a national and local level. Its all done to help mininize access to our network by spammers. And I know that some of the ISP's we work with do the same thing.

 RitualOfTheTrout Sep 21, 2004
Im sure we have all had an experience with a PC on a 56K connecction that is totally over run with viruses and spyware. My g/fs PC is like that right now. There are so many different things trying to use the internet connection you cant even browse to google within 5-10 minute time period. Its also infected with a virus that shuts down AVG while it is scanning. Its a total mess. Like stated before Im just formating and starting with a fresh install, SP2, AVG, Thunderbird email client, and Firefox browser. This should keep everything under control and limit these programs that are making the PC usless as is.

 CrazyGoon Sep 21, 2004

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by Curtis@Sep 21, 2004 @ 07:42 AM



Your choice I guess, but when your ISP shuts you down for sending out 25Gb of spam a month because your computer acts as a spam relay, don't come crying to us.


Nah, I won't. I'll just act like an ignorant fool (or do I not need to act? ) if they shut me down :devil Anyway, I don't seem to be that knowledgeable on this subject, so I don't have anything else to add

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