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Return Fire?

Sickliquid86 - May 6, 2003

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		Taelon		May 20, 2003
			Can we go back to the impending Return Fire release now, please?

gameboy900

May 20, 2003

	
	
		
		
			Originally posted by Taelon@May 20, 2003 @ 06:06 PM



 Can we go back to the impending Return Fire release now, please?

/me goes back to playing Return Fire on his 3DO.

		Taelon		May 21, 2003
			<_< Wrong, forum, Mister

		Carnivol		Jun 3, 2003
			Okay, didn't read every line through this thread now... But... if there realy is so that someone has a CDR game that boots (a beta of some game they've picked up somewhere) Have you tried to make a 1:1 copy of that game? And see if it boots? 'cause if the copy of the already booting cdr boots too... Then you can propably use some ISO handling tool, and replace the game files on the ISO and then reburn it with the new data... It could work... (unless there's some files that makes it boot, but if so, then those files must be found somehow...) Personaly, I think that selfbooting CDR someone mentioned here... Was it Virtual Tennis? Might have the security ring, even though it doesn't look so... The security ring propably holds some sort of info (like the first seconds on a PSX disc) In that case, it is possible to burn it, it's just that normaly you're not allowed to do so... (Datel seems to be the experts on figuring out how stuff like that works... did they ever make something for the saturn? (a AR/GS maybe?) if so, then they propably know... but if they will share... guess not...)

		IBarracudaI		Jun 3, 2003
			/me is completely confused The security ring CAN'T BE COPIED.... almost 10years have passed since the release of the saturn, but still noone has been able to even READ what data the ring holds... (of course the sega guys know it.. ). If someone, somehow makes a bootable cdr... I think I'll change my idol..

		Carnivol		Jun 3, 2003
			I haven't read through everything here... (Didn't I say that in the last post too?) Anyway, what I said was: Someone said they had a beta release of a game, and that beta was on a CDR (Segasaturn cdr) and IF that CDR can be copied somehow by normal methods, and the beta still selfboots (the copy of the already existing selfboot cdr) Then you can basicly just modify that ISO so you put in the data from other games instead of the data that already is there... As the Saturn protection basicly is a piece of fucked up data (just like the PSX one) It can be copied, but the problem is figuring out how... And I suppose that everything that is possible should be tested, right? (as long as it doesn't have a huge risc) But back to Datel... If Datel ever released something on CD for the saturn, that means that Datel somehow figured out how the protection works... (like with the PSX, PS2 and GC)

		antime		Jun 3, 2003
			Dear Jesus, not this again.. First off, the Return Fire disc wasn't selfbooting. Secondly, the Saturn protection method isn't like the Playstation's. There's more than one thread on the subject here, I strongly suggest you find and read them first.

		Carnivol		Jun 3, 2003
			No no no... I'm not trying to start some havoc here... I read the earlier posts under this topic... Figured I miss read the little part about Virtual Open tennis (I never said the RF was a sb, I never actualy mentioned RF) Anyway, I'm fully aware of the fact that there are differences between the 2 security types of those consoles. The PSX has a inner one, the Saturn uses and outer one (speaking of placement of the security system) All I was saying was: If someone for some strange reason gets a backup to work without any form for swap, mod or switch, the iso for that backup is the key solving the puzzle... But for some reason, I guess it's not possible to solve it that way... As the Saturn propably deals with some fake/corrupt data in the ring... (That every damn burner and stuff will just identify as crap/broken and therefor fuck it up when reading it...) No one answered to the Datel part though...

antime

Jun 3, 2003

	
	
		
		
			Originally posted by Carnivol@Jun 3, 2003 @ 11:32 AM



As the Saturn propably deals with some fake/corrupt data in the ring...

That is as of yet unknown. AFAIK the CD spiral is broken before the security area starts, so you'd need a customised reader to even access that part of the disc. But this has all been discussed thoroughly before.

	
	
		
		
			No one answered to the Datel part though...

To the best of my knowledge, Datel never released a CD-based product for the Saturn.

		IBarracudaI		Jun 3, 2003
			Antime is right, the main issue on the saturn protection is to even get a cdrom's laser to get to the starting position of the 'outer ring', ie. the game itself and its tracks can for example be 300MB... the ring would be somewhere near the end.. Burners available commercial stop when the reach the leadout track... We'll need a special cdrom that is capable of somehow reading the WHOLE SURFACE... And even if we get to extract it.. burning is another problem..

		mal		Jun 3, 2003
			I'll just put my AU$0.02 in... I bought a Virtua Open Tennis beta CDR. It had no securtiy ring. AFAIK, it isn't self booting. It also came with an original System Disc (boot disc). You'd use this to boot any beta games on a CDR. Make sense?

		AntiPasta		Jun 3, 2003
			maybe if someone hooked up a logic analyser between the Saturn lens and the SH1/cd dsp we could at least get a raw dump of the ring's data... I heard something similar was done with the NGC

Taelon

Jun 3, 2003

	
	
		
		
			Originally posted by AntiPasta@Jun 3, 2003 @ 07:41 AM



 maybe if someone hooked up a logic analyser between the Saturn lens and the SH1/cd dsp we could at least get a raw dump of the ring's data...

Isn't that how the mod chip came to be in the first place? AFAIK, it fakes that very same data when the Saturn tries to read the ring - in fact it intercepts that particular read request itself.

I would think it's one thing to get at that data, but another to produce a CDR with a security ring containing that data in the correct format/layout...

		AntiPasta		Jun 3, 2003
			I still plan to disassemble the bootdisc code and run it on my saturn via my comms card and 4-in-1... attempts to disassemble the IP.BIN have been unsuccesful however

vbt

Jun 3, 2003

I know I'm dreaming but a long time ago there was in this forum a little code sample used to unlock the CD for PsyQ, something like that. Maybe it could be used ? I kept the fucntion and never used it

Code:

    #define SYS_CDINIT1(i) \

    ((**(void(**)(int))0x60002dc)(i))

#define SYS_CDINIT2() \

    ((**(void(**)(void))0x600029c)())

int CdUnlock (void)

.....

		TakaIsSilly		Jun 3, 2003
			That code (or better the whole sample), indeed, unlocks the drive. But, in the process, checks for the ring in the CD, and fails to unlock if it fails the check - rendering it useless.

		Carnivol		Jun 3, 2003
			Wouldn't it be possible to take an optical read-out/log of what the Saturn reads from the disc? I mean, someone HAS been reading/extracting GC games (but never been able to recompile the discs so they work on the GC itself) That was done by doing an optical log of what the GC reads... It could be possible to do the same with the Saturn... But I dunno if it'd make any sense... Anyway, if it did solve the puzzle, then someone must make a patcher to patch every damn ISO with + not many burners support burning "uncommon" sectors (corrupt, weak, enhanced and other strange stuff...) Another thing that I realy HOPE have been tested is: data recovery programs! There's a lot of programs out there, made for reading the entire disc, giving the shit about the TOC and everything. (So you can get as much data as possible back from a broken disc) I've been using such a tool for recovery of data from broken data discs, and it could continue reading after the data actualy ends (reads alfa-omega, from beginning to the end) giving the shit about the how the disc is "supposed" or "pretending" to be) I realy hope someone have already tried doing this... I don't remember what tool I used, but I think I got the shareware from downloads.com Hmm... speaking of recovery... Wouldn't this be a possible thing to try: Sending a Saturn disc to a data restore company... (someone that restores data from broken HDs, CDs and whatever...) Recovering data from a "non-broken" disc isn't supposed to cost much (as they don't need to use any "über-1337-tools" for it) the data recovered from the disc will be directly 1:1 logged onto another disc... (So a bent disc gets a flat brother and stuff like that is the main purpose, but they do recover normal-un-harmed discs too, as some cd-drives doesn't play certain media (like my MP3-CD_player that doesn't like Vivastar media)) So... if someone could try to send a fully functional original Saturn game for a disc recovery.. Then could see if the backup/new copy they create at the recovery firm actualy works...

		Alexvrb		Jun 4, 2003
			It'd almost be worth it just to get their reaction...

Taelon

Jun 4, 2003

For the love of God, people...

This thread SUCKS! I expect to hear something new about Return Fire - when can I buy the blasted thing?? I've had it up to here with carts vs. CDs and security rings and all that.. AUUGGHHHH!!!

Just which part of

	
	
		
		
			Can we go back to Return Fire now, please?

did you guys not understand?

<_<

:huh

		AntiPasta		Jun 4, 2003
			well having a way to run Cd-Rs on a non-modded Saturn would greatly increase the number of people interested in Return Fire I figure

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