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does this sound good
joe81 - Apr 29, 2003

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  joe81 Apr 30, 2003
same in elem school they made you pledge and after that for me i never had to.

no i'm not an atheist

 Jurai Apr 30, 2003
not pledging is like saying your a terrorist asshole, fuck off joe and go back to iraq, we dont need ur dirty kind in our country, k?

 gameboy900 Apr 30, 2003
One thing everyone seems to be ignoring is that being a teacher is a JOB. You are required to do what your employer demans, if you do not wish to do so you can quit your job. If the school board wants you to say the pledge everyday with the students then that is a part of your job and you are required to do so. Also being a teacher you are in a position of authority over the students which makes it even more important for you to follow whatever rules or guidelines the school board sets out. They expect you to show a good example to the students of what THEY want. Your job is to convey what they want to the students in the best way possible.

Think of it this way. If you were a supervisor for some company and had a group of workers you managed. And let's say that company had some rule you didn't agree with. Do you think it would be ok for you not to follow that rule just because you don't agree with it? Would your workers follow the rule if they saw that you didn't? Would the company keep you around for long once they found out you weren't following the rules they set out?

The point of all this is that as an employee of a company you have to do what the company wishes as long as it doesn't put you in physical or emotional harm (which I seriously doubt saying the pledge does) at which point you have the right to refuse to work (not the right to ignore the bad part though). Of course you better have a damn good reason for this if you expect any chages or to keep your job. Alternativly you are free to quit your job and seek employment in another company that does not enforce anything you don't believe in.

I'm sure there are other teachers in that school who think the way you do, but they're smart enough to know that if they want to keep their jobs they will put up with it and just say the words. Saying the words for show and meaning them are two completely different things.

 joe81 Apr 30, 2003
I'm not a teacher, I understand that if my job requires me to pledge that i will since it's a job requirement i mean i have to dress unlike i would regularly to go to work so i mean i'll budge if it was a requirment that i could not get around(sure it's selling out but sometimes you have to repress what you believe to survive) but i'm not a teacher i was there to observe it was a course, and it affected my grade i wasn't the kids teacher i wasn't being payed i had no authority over the kids i was an observer.

I know that the United States does not follow it's ideals i mean no government ever lives up to its ideals, but i know that it could be better and to not accept others and to shoot down all that is different will only lead to the worst. Admitting you have a problem is always the first step to recovery.

Jurai not speaking out for your freedoms is un-American if people didn't speak out we would not be the way we are today. We'd be sipping back tea and playing cricket, and who would want that?

 gameboy900 Apr 30, 2003
Hmm...I guess I have to appologize. I seem to have missread your posts or had a brain fart or something. I had assumed you were doing some practical work to become a teacher but I guess if it's just some course you're taking it seems a bit harsh in that case. I don't see why the pledge would be THAT big a deal in this situation.

Sorry.

 Jurai Apr 30, 2003

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by joe81@Apr 30, 2003 @ 12:32 PM



 I'm not a teacher, I understand that if my job requires me to pledge that i will since it's a job requirement i mean i have to dress unlike i would regularly to go to work so i mean i'll budge if it was a requirment that i could not get around(sure it's selling out but sometimes you have to repress what you believe to survive) but i'm not a teacher i was there to observe it was a course, and it affected my grade i wasn't the kids teacher i wasn't being payed i had no authority over the kids i was an observer.



I know that the United States does not follow it's ideals i mean no government ever lives up to its ideals, but i know that it could be better and to not accept others and to shoot down all that is different will only lead to the worst. Admitting you have a problem is always the first step to recovery. 



Jurai not speaking out for your freedoms is un-American if people didn't speak out we would not be the way we are today. We'd be sipping back tea and playing cricket, and who would want that?


not pledging to the symbol of our freedom is unamerican u fuckin faggot, go burn in hell w/ saddam and osama while gettin ass raped by hitler

 Gallstaff Apr 30, 2003
Jesus, chill out dude.

Ok while I do sort of agree with Juri here, I am not angry like he is. I would just like to ask is it THAT big a deal? Ok you dont like pledging to a a symbol but is it really that important? It's not like that flag is America, it's a symbol. When you look at a picture of a person you aren't looking at that person you're looking at a representation of them. Pledgeing to the flag is merely saying that you believe in America, not that you believe in the flag itself.

 mtxblau Apr 30, 2003

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by Jurai@Apr 29, 2003 @ 10:32 PM



 not pledging to the symbol of our freedom is unamerican u fuckin faggot, go burn in hell w/ saddam and osama while gettin ass raped by hitler


How old are you? Ten? I've read a number of your posts, and all of them are along the same line - insult someone, not make a point, move on, and insult some more.

In any event, not pledging is not un-american. You know, that whole Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights thing?

Supreme Court rulings have upheld that even peaceful flag burning is actually protected by the Constitution - it's a form of political speech. In the same effect, not pledging to the flag doesn't make you un-american.

To say that by not doing things, or saying things against the United States makes you Un-American. In no sense does it do that - it may fly against popular opinion, but as the saying goes, 'it's a free country'. And perhaps in your misguided post you forgot that - it is a free country.

 Resident_Lurker Apr 30, 2003
The last time we pledged every day was in 3rd grade. We stopped after that. I never thought it was strange and now when I look back on it I don't think there was anything wrong with it.

Pledging your allegiance to "the flag" is really just a metaphor. You're pledging your support for the ideals of America. Are those ideals that bad?

 schi0249 Apr 30, 2003
I find the current popular American view very disconcerting. According to popular belief, we are in Iraq spreading "Democratic Freedom". Yet many people are attacked for expressing thhose exact same freedoms.

 joe81 Apr 30, 2003
no the ideals of american and america itself are held dearly to me.

Just i dont believe in idolizing anything. there are christians that dont believe in pledging because it is idolizing something other than god. I dont believe in pledging to anything it is as simple as that nothing against the flag nothing against america just i dont pledge to ANYTHING. That is a belif of mine I dont believe in idolizing anything and i dont pledge to anything.

I'm agnostic

 Resident_Lurker Apr 30, 2003
Fair enough. I can understand your point able idolization, but it's hard for me because I'd never thought of reciting the pledge as idolization.

I'm not a religious man so you've put a new spin on it that I hadn't thought of before.

As for becoming a teacher, some schools do this everyday. Will it stop you from being successful?

(by the way, what grade were you planning on starting with?)

 Jurai Apr 30, 2003

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by joe81@Apr 30, 2003 @ 03:10 PM



 no the ideals of american and america itself are held dearly to me.



Just i dont believe in idolizing anything. there are christians that dont believe in pledging because it is idolizing something other than god. I dont believe in pledging to anything it is as simple as that nothing against the flag nothing against america just i dont pledge to ANYTHING. That is a belif of mine I dont believe in idolizing anything and i dont pledge to anything.



I'm agnostic


so you arent loyal to america cuz u wont pledge urself to it, go die please

 Resident_Lurker Apr 30, 2003

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by Jurai@Apr 30, 2003 @ 04:54 PM



so you arent loyal to america cuz u wont pledge urself to it, go die please


joo r teh terrorizt, joe!!!!!11


 Tindo@heart Apr 30, 2003
gameboy900, don't apologize. You had a great point. He doesn't have the job, but he is training for it. He is suppose to be observing and following the curriculum of a teacher, right?

I don't think the people that "talked" about you not pledging had a problem with you being "un-american." They probably thought you would make a poor teacher if you were un-able to do what your told. I'm sure some thought it was un-american, but I think the main point here is that you refuse to follow the school system's ideals of a teacher.

Teachers are leaders and teachers of the public's children. The public don't have a problem with pledging, you do. If you can't teach or do what the public expects for their children, then you shouldn't work as a teacher. These are not your kids, so there are strict rules on how a teacher should behave.

BTW, In school we were only asked to pledge in elementary school.

 ExCyber May 1, 2003

  
	
	

		
		

			One thing everyone seems to be ignoring is that being a teacher is a JOB. You are required to do what your employer demans, if you do not wish to do so you can quit your job. If the school board wants you to say the pledge everyday with the students then that is a part of your job and you are required to do so.



  
	
	

		
		

			I don't think the people that "talked" about you not pledging had a problem with you being "un-american." They probably thought you would make a poor teacher if you were un-able to do what your told.


Even if this were a valid point with regard to subordinating yourself to an icon (allegiance is something traditionally pledged to a sovereign), nobody told him he had to do it until it was too late. And I get this funny feeling that if he had been a follower of a "real" religion that conflicted with the pledge, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

 joe81 May 1, 2003
to answer an above question i want to teach 9-12.

 Jurai May 1, 2003

  
	
	

		
		

			Originally posted by joe81@May 1, 2003 @ 12:21 PM



 to answer an above question i want to teach 9-12.


to answer an obvious question, we dont need unamerican assholes teaching children

 joe81 May 1, 2003
jurai i love you man(in a nonhomosexual way)

 Mr. Moustache May 1, 2003
I agree.. I think we should all give Jurai a great big hug.

*hugs Jurai*

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